5th Column's storyline
June 19, 2009 - 8:41am
So, I haven't decided whether to be disappointed with CoX's storytelling, or just confused.
Some Spoilers, BTW.
There've been a fair number of critical comments about the storyline of the I15 SF and TF, on the main boards. There may be some story elements still missing from those TF's, but as it stands they don't explain the connection between Reichsman, a Marcus Cole from another universe, and the 5th Column, a neo-Nazi villain group with its base in WWII on Primal Earth. I understand their Nazi ideology is similar, but there's no explanation as to why the 5th would suddenly decide to give their leadership up to the leader of Axis Amerika. It gets even more convoluted when you take into consideration that the Nictus were using 5th Column troups in the ITF.
On top of that, Reichsman allies himself with some very un-Nazi villains, such as CoT, Carnies, and Countess Crey... one of which is actually a defector to the hero side.
I was expecting at least a little explanation, but here's what we got from Manticore:
Question: A question on the 5th Column.
Are they from our world? When did Reichsman declare himself their new leader? Why did Mueller suddenly decide to follow him?
Answer: The 5th Column has it’s origins firmly planted in Primal Earth. For more information about the return of Reichsman and the 5th Column check out this Developer Diary:
http://www.cityofheroes.com/news/game_updates/issue_15/developer_diary_2.html
Needless to say, there's not a whole lot of explanation in that Dev Diary.
Does anyone else have any better info on this? I know comics aren't always known for their continuity, but I was hoping I could at least follow the lore.....
Some Spoilers, BTW.
There've been a fair number of critical comments about the storyline of the I15 SF and TF, on the main boards. There may be some story elements still missing from those TF's, but as it stands they don't explain the connection between Reichsman, a Marcus Cole from another universe, and the 5th Column, a neo-Nazi villain group with its base in WWII on Primal Earth. I understand their Nazi ideology is similar, but there's no explanation as to why the 5th would suddenly decide to give their leadership up to the leader of Axis Amerika. It gets even more convoluted when you take into consideration that the Nictus were using 5th Column troups in the ITF.
On top of that, Reichsman allies himself with some very un-Nazi villains, such as CoT, Carnies, and Countess Crey... one of which is actually a defector to the hero side.
I was expecting at least a little explanation, but here's what we got from Manticore:
Question: A question on the 5th Column.
Are they from our world? When did Reichsman declare himself their new leader? Why did Mueller suddenly decide to follow him?
Answer: The 5th Column has it’s origins firmly planted in Primal Earth. For more information about the return of Reichsman and the 5th Column check out this Developer Diary:
http://www.cityofheroes.com/news/game_updates/issue_15/developer_diary_2.html
Needless to say, there's not a whole lot of explanation in that Dev Diary.
Does anyone else have any better info on this? I know comics aren't always known for their continuity, but I was hoping I could at least follow the lore.....
June 20, 2009 - 9:08am
#2
Seriously hoping they'll straighten out the lore in this case...normally they're pretty much on the mark, but there's still time to clean it up, unless this all happens on a parallel/paradoxical universe, and in that case, all bets are off 
__________________
June 20, 2009 - 11:02am
#3
Heads up - nice little book coming and there's no tl;dr cliff notes!
The Imperious Task Force and even Cimerora ties in with the 'Path of the Dark'. This is where the Nictus come in, though I wouldn't say they're totally assisting Requiem and the Fifth Column given the fact that they are not really interspersed/integrated with the various Cimerorans and Fifth Column in the various missions.
In any case, after the Center takes control of the Fifth Column and subsumes the Fifth, Requiem unwillingly serves the Council. Flash-forward some time, Requiem has decided to travel back into the past and create various temporal strong points that he can then get his revenge and what not. This is what the ITF deals with, and ultimately you stop Requiem's plans.
The new TF/SF pick up after all this, where the Fifth Column is in the process returning from the past.
As for Reichsman leading the Fifth, I think part of it is explained in the villain SF - I haven't run it to be honest. However, considering that in Reischman's home dimension - Axis Amerika - he basically ensured the world was conquered and maintains the whole Nazi ideals. So for the Fifth, to basically get an evil Nazi version of Statesman, who conquered his world, on your side...even at the cost of being your leader, to me makes sense. As for Requiem, I would think of it as a middle finger gesture to him and his inability to do anything successful after the Fifth's fall.
Lastly, for Reichsman's little get together - while the grouping doesn't make a lot of sense at first, if you think about it, things kinda make sense. But in any case, every villain has an agenda and they'll make truces and allies if it furthers their goals and so Reichsman is going to go after the more powerful groups and individuals that he thinks he can manipulate to further his own goals.
Countess Crey - Head of Crey, the evil super corporation. By siding with Reichsman, Crey gets access to another world and whatever it holds that they can exploit. If the Fifth Column conquered primal earth, then Crey puts itself in a position to be the only source of "consumer goods".
Nemesis - Uh, everything's a Nemesis plot? Nem's probably got something up his sleeve about all this...everyone should expect that.
Akarist - You never really know with this guy. There's a villain mission where you sacrifice his soul, so maybe Akarist isn't really Akarist if you catch my drift. There is another potential explanation - the dude's a traitor to his fellow Circle of Thorns, you can question where his loyalties really are and if he's threatened with being killed...the guy's gonna try and get out of it and try and side with the dude who wants to squash him.
Vanessa Devore - By allying with Reichsman, she gets left alone and could live up her high life and potentially gets a nice little steady stream of souls to suck on.
So with the exception of Nemesis, none of the groups have any desires of world domination so they're not really a threat to Reischman, but they do provide nice resources that he can exploit.
The Imperious Task Force and even Cimerora ties in with the 'Path of the Dark'. This is where the Nictus come in, though I wouldn't say they're totally assisting Requiem and the Fifth Column given the fact that they are not really interspersed/integrated with the various Cimerorans and Fifth Column in the various missions.
In any case, after the Center takes control of the Fifth Column and subsumes the Fifth, Requiem unwillingly serves the Council. Flash-forward some time, Requiem has decided to travel back into the past and create various temporal strong points that he can then get his revenge and what not. This is what the ITF deals with, and ultimately you stop Requiem's plans.
The new TF/SF pick up after all this, where the Fifth Column is in the process returning from the past.
As for Reichsman leading the Fifth, I think part of it is explained in the villain SF - I haven't run it to be honest. However, considering that in Reischman's home dimension - Axis Amerika - he basically ensured the world was conquered and maintains the whole Nazi ideals. So for the Fifth, to basically get an evil Nazi version of Statesman, who conquered his world, on your side...even at the cost of being your leader, to me makes sense. As for Requiem, I would think of it as a middle finger gesture to him and his inability to do anything successful after the Fifth's fall.
Lastly, for Reichsman's little get together - while the grouping doesn't make a lot of sense at first, if you think about it, things kinda make sense. But in any case, every villain has an agenda and they'll make truces and allies if it furthers their goals and so Reichsman is going to go after the more powerful groups and individuals that he thinks he can manipulate to further his own goals.
Countess Crey - Head of Crey, the evil super corporation. By siding with Reichsman, Crey gets access to another world and whatever it holds that they can exploit. If the Fifth Column conquered primal earth, then Crey puts itself in a position to be the only source of "consumer goods".
Nemesis - Uh, everything's a Nemesis plot? Nem's probably got something up his sleeve about all this...everyone should expect that.
Akarist - You never really know with this guy. There's a villain mission where you sacrifice his soul, so maybe Akarist isn't really Akarist if you catch my drift. There is another potential explanation - the dude's a traitor to his fellow Circle of Thorns, you can question where his loyalties really are and if he's threatened with being killed...the guy's gonna try and get out of it and try and side with the dude who wants to squash him.
Vanessa Devore - By allying with Reichsman, she gets left alone and could live up her high life and potentially gets a nice little steady stream of souls to suck on.
So with the exception of Nemesis, none of the groups have any desires of world domination so they're not really a threat to Reischman, but they do provide nice resources that he can exploit.
June 20, 2009 - 4:04pm
#4
Thanks Razor. I figured I'd get a well thought out (and opposing) view from you. I meant this thread as an honest question, not just a place for me to rant and/or complain, so I appreciate it.
Oh, I understand the concept of villain truces, I'm just not convinced that these ones work. It looks more like an attempt to cater to sensationalism (wow look at all of these AV's!) than to the story.
Did I miss somewhere what happened to the Centre, the Council, and why the Nictus are working with Requiem in the first place?
I'm going to read your link on 'Path of the Dark' before commenting any more.
Oh, I understand the concept of villain truces, I'm just not convinced that these ones work. It looks more like an attempt to cater to sensationalism (wow look at all of these AV's!) than to the story.
Did I miss somewhere what happened to the Centre, the Council, and why the Nictus are working with Requiem in the first place?
I'm going to read your link on 'Path of the Dark' before commenting any more.
June 20, 2009 - 4:18pm
#5
Well, the villain gathering isn't anything new to be honest. In Viridian's unlockable arc you get a ton of big name villains all together, including the Center (He's still around and kicking btw).
In any case, I think that if players connect the dots and think about the gathering in a similar way that I do...then it does make more sense. Not that it excuses the way the TF and SF are done, cause I will agree that it is a bit sloppy and could be cleaned up to make more sense without spending too much time theorizing and all that.
In any case, I think that if players connect the dots and think about the gathering in a similar way that I do...then it does make more sense. Not that it excuses the way the TF and SF are done, cause I will agree that it is a bit sloppy and could be cleaned up to make more sense without spending too much time theorizing and all that.
June 20, 2009 - 9:15pm
#6
Yeah. I've read a bit more of the back lore and the Nictus connection in the ITF makes a bit more sense now. I just don't like that the 5th switching from Requiem to Reichsman isn't clearly developed. I could see Reichsman's 5th column going to war against the Nictus version... which would lead to 3 factions.
Either way, they need to write the TF's as if we don't know the back story, not as if we've all got story bibles.
Thanks for the info.
Either way, they need to write the TF's as if we don't know the back story, not as if we've all got story bibles.
Thanks for the info.
June 21, 2009 - 9:24am
#7
I appreciate the time and effort you put into your review, Razor. I just don't agree. It appears to me that you've filled in the gaping plot holes yourself, but the TF/SF still makes little sense and even offers even less in the way of continuity.
In my opinion it's lazy writing when the story requires me to fill in so many blanks with speculation based on my own understanding of the characters traditional motivations.
In my opinion it's lazy writing when the story requires me to fill in so many blanks with speculation based on my own understanding of the characters traditional motivations.
June 22, 2009 - 9:38am
#8
Yeah, I realize that I did fill in holes and crap that I shouldn't have to. I think the real problem is that Ghost Falcon was the one in charge of the TF and SF and I think he was more focused at introducing Reichsman back into the game and creating some "special" last encounter. The rest fell by the wayside and has stayed there.
I won't pretend to know what it is like to work on these things as a dev, but at the same time I can't believe that it is so hard to take some of the feedback from the community regarding the continuity holes and try to patch them up some with changes to the dialog found in the TF and SF.
I won't pretend to know what it is like to work on these things as a dev, but at the same time I can't believe that it is so hard to take some of the feedback from the community regarding the continuity holes and try to patch them up some with changes to the dialog found in the TF and SF.
June 22, 2009 - 9:40am
#9
...In my opinion it's lazy writing when the story requires me to fill in so many blanks with speculation based on my own understanding of the characters traditional motivations. :(
That was my initial feeling. Some of what Razor mentions is in the lore, but there's still some hole filling needed. On top of that, I shouldn't have to google Requiem and crew to find out the back story from 3rd party sites. I should at least be able to follow along through the TF/SF even if some of the finer details are found in other story arcs, plaques, etc.
June 22, 2009 - 9:42am
#10
...I won't pretend to know what it is like to work on these things as a dev, but at the same time I can't believe that it is so hard to take some of the feedback from the community regarding the continuity holes.....
Yup.
It's not like there's only one or two people in the official 'I15 Feedback' forums complaining either.
June 22, 2009 - 9:58am
#11
To be honest though, the information on ParagonWiki for the most part does come from in game. A lot of the story arcs explain the various aspects of different villain/hero groups as well as notable NPC's. For example, Requiem's origin and other pertinent information is featured in A Path Into Darkness as well as the various later level Kheldian arcs. The other groups and characters such as Devouring Earth, Carnies, Malta, ect have arcs that do the same thing.
June 22, 2009 - 10:26am
#12
I like the fact that you can find (some of) this stuff in game and in places like Paragon Wiki.
I'm not sure the TF/SF should be based on info that is exclusive to Kheld arcs, though. How many people have actually played through those arcs, relatively speaking?
Like I said, the TF/SF should explain itself with, maybe, the finer points being found in some of the other less accessable areas.... my opinion.
I appreciated the Path Into Darkness reference, though. It did help.
I'm not sure the TF/SF should be based on info that is exclusive to Kheld arcs, though. How many people have actually played through those arcs, relatively speaking?
Like I said, the TF/SF should explain itself with, maybe, the finer points being found in some of the other less accessable areas.... my opinion.
I appreciated the Path Into Darkness reference, though. It did help.
June 22, 2009 - 10:42am
#13
The Kheldian arcs really only do some minor fleshing out, it's not as heavy in terms of information as the other arcs.
And I have mixed feelings about exposition now that I've thought about it some. I think that some things should be clear when doing a TF or SF, but then look at the inspiration for the game - super heroes and comic books.
Comic books are notorious for their long and drawn out storylines and big events and those things build upon earlier events. So while you can sometimes jump into a comic book and get some idea of what is going on, you're not always going to be clear on what has happened before. And if you want to get caught up, you have to do some research.
So I don't know, I'm sort of conflicted now. Of course I maybe confused people just now too. >.>
And I have mixed feelings about exposition now that I've thought about it some. I think that some things should be clear when doing a TF or SF, but then look at the inspiration for the game - super heroes and comic books.
Comic books are notorious for their long and drawn out storylines and big events and those things build upon earlier events. So while you can sometimes jump into a comic book and get some idea of what is going on, you're not always going to be clear on what has happened before. And if you want to get caught up, you have to do some research.
So I don't know, I'm sort of conflicted now. Of course I maybe confused people just now too. >.>
June 22, 2009 - 11:55am
#14
I mostly agree with you Razor. I just wish that it was clearer where to look for more information. Especially since we got newspaper and radio missions, I think fewer and fewer people are actually playing arcs... and how often are they playing arcs where they aren't the team leader, and so don't necessarily see the intro text or clues?
I think a lot of the story gets lost.
I think a lot of the story gets lost.
June 22, 2009 - 11:59am
#15
then AE was introduced and it is almost impossible to find a PUG taht is running mission arcs. Although with PUGs this might not be sucha bad thing 
June 22, 2009 - 12:10pm
#16
I know on TF's and the like they made it so that everyone on the team gets clues, which help. For the mission intros and what not, you can always click on the red or yellow star in your mission window as that will display all the mission info in a new window.
But yeah, paper, scanner and AE missions have definitely affected the numbers actually running through official arcs.
But yeah, paper, scanner and AE missions have definitely affected the numbers actually running through official arcs.
June 22, 2009 - 2:18pm
#17
Just finished running through several subjects on Paragon Wiki and found that even there some of the articles either don't agree or are incomplete.
What I read said:
Arankh is leader of the Nictus race. Contacted a human priest who was researching 'The Path of Darkness'. He got fused with Nictus and became Requiem. The two plotted to turn the planet into a Nictus world, which can be seen in "Werewolf World", and alternate Earth where Requiem is in charge.
In order to further his plans, Requiem worked with the Axis powers (primarily Italy) and along with Vandal and Nosferatu, founded the 5th Column. For Vandal, Nosferatu, Buckholder, Meastro, and crew it seems they were loyal to the Nazi regime because of the promise of power and the lack of restraints on their 'science'. Requiem and Arankh were working with the powers that were in control of Europe, but were secretly focused on the Nictus, not the 3rd Reich. The footsoldiers, however, would have been recruited based on Fascist ideals and would be loyal either to the ideals or the commanders.
During the Issue 3 removal of the 5th, all AV's became Council AV's. In the 'Silos' TF Requiem's speech tells the 5th that they should lie in wait for a signal, pretending to be Council soldiers. He and other 5th AV's submit, but plan to overthrow the Council, saying that the 5th will rise again, and saying that he's already taken steps to ensure this.
During the ITF, a Requiem that is 'out of time' has established a stronghold in the past and implies that there are other such strongholds other than in ancient Rome. It is a 5th Column army powered by Nictus, and not the Council. I dind't see evidence that Requiem has left the Council, even though he maintains his own 5th Column armies outside of time, and clearly wants to get rid of the Centre.
The Council has been around in the background at least since WWII and planned to use the 3rd Reich for their own purposes.
Here's my thoughts:
The AV's seem willing to follow anyone who is in power. Arankh should be a bigger deal than she is. She seems loyal to the Center most of the time, but one reference said she and Requiem attempted a coup. This leave four groups of 5th/former 5th soldiers:
There's no explanation as to why the 5th would choose another leader other than their founder, Requiem. You could say that a faction of them that truely believed in the Nazi/Fascist cause decided to back the most powerful super that fit, Reichsman. There's also no explanation as to how or when the Center made the alliance with the Nictus. Apparently they've been allied since WWII, yet not allied with the 5th. That doesn't make much sense either.
What I read said:
Arankh is leader of the Nictus race. Contacted a human priest who was researching 'The Path of Darkness'. He got fused with Nictus and became Requiem. The two plotted to turn the planet into a Nictus world, which can be seen in "Werewolf World", and alternate Earth where Requiem is in charge.
In order to further his plans, Requiem worked with the Axis powers (primarily Italy) and along with Vandal and Nosferatu, founded the 5th Column. For Vandal, Nosferatu, Buckholder, Meastro, and crew it seems they were loyal to the Nazi regime because of the promise of power and the lack of restraints on their 'science'. Requiem and Arankh were working with the powers that were in control of Europe, but were secretly focused on the Nictus, not the 3rd Reich. The footsoldiers, however, would have been recruited based on Fascist ideals and would be loyal either to the ideals or the commanders.
During the Issue 3 removal of the 5th, all AV's became Council AV's. In the 'Silos' TF Requiem's speech tells the 5th that they should lie in wait for a signal, pretending to be Council soldiers. He and other 5th AV's submit, but plan to overthrow the Council, saying that the 5th will rise again, and saying that he's already taken steps to ensure this.
During the ITF, a Requiem that is 'out of time' has established a stronghold in the past and implies that there are other such strongholds other than in ancient Rome. It is a 5th Column army powered by Nictus, and not the Council. I dind't see evidence that Requiem has left the Council, even though he maintains his own 5th Column armies outside of time, and clearly wants to get rid of the Centre.
The Council has been around in the background at least since WWII and planned to use the 3rd Reich for their own purposes.
Here's my thoughts:
The AV's seem willing to follow anyone who is in power. Arankh should be a bigger deal than she is. She seems loyal to the Center most of the time, but one reference said she and Requiem attempted a coup. This leave four groups of 5th/former 5th soldiers:
- Assimilated by Council - loyal to the Center and his AV's
- Hidden in the Council - secretly loyal to Requiem and his AV's
- Underground in the 'mists of time' - as in Cimerora, set up and loyal to Requiem
- Not hidden - apparently choosing another leader in Reichsman
There's no explanation as to why the 5th would choose another leader other than their founder, Requiem. You could say that a faction of them that truely believed in the Nazi/Fascist cause decided to back the most powerful super that fit, Reichsman. There's also no explanation as to how or when the Center made the alliance with the Nictus. Apparently they've been allied since WWII, yet not allied with the 5th. That doesn't make much sense either.
June 22, 2009 - 3:12pm
#18
Well, like the information says...Requiem was keeping his goals with the Nictus a secret. I mean it wouldn't be a good way to get and keep loyal followers if they knew you were working with aliens to basically destroy life as they knew it on Earth.
The Center actually has the mutant ability to influence or control people in some form, so that ensures him a level of control over his troops and lieutenants. I know that's not stated in the wiki, but it actually has been confirmed.
As for the time travel and strong points and what not. With time travel, it's entirely plausible for Requiem to go back in time and do whatever he needs and then arrive back to the current time in a way so that no one ever noticed he was gone in the first place.
I also don't think that there are other strong points, at least not after the ITF. During the first mission of Dr. Kahn's TF (the new one) a Fifth Column soldier says he hated hiding in the past, and that makes it look like the Fifth is done hiding.
So I don't know, I don't want to fill in more plot holes, but I really can not help but think that the Fifth Columnists are more loyal to the Nazi ideals than to Requiem. So when presented with the option of being led by the guy who really embodies those ideals aka Reichsman, especially after Requiem's whole debacle during the ITF...it just makes sense to me that guys would jump ship.
The Center actually has the mutant ability to influence or control people in some form, so that ensures him a level of control over his troops and lieutenants. I know that's not stated in the wiki, but it actually has been confirmed.
As for the time travel and strong points and what not. With time travel, it's entirely plausible for Requiem to go back in time and do whatever he needs and then arrive back to the current time in a way so that no one ever noticed he was gone in the first place.
I also don't think that there are other strong points, at least not after the ITF. During the first mission of Dr. Kahn's TF (the new one) a Fifth Column soldier says he hated hiding in the past, and that makes it look like the Fifth is done hiding.
So I don't know, I don't want to fill in more plot holes, but I really can not help but think that the Fifth Columnists are more loyal to the Nazi ideals than to Requiem. So when presented with the option of being led by the guy who really embodies those ideals aka Reichsman, especially after Requiem's whole debacle during the ITF...it just makes sense to me that guys would jump ship.
June 23, 2009 - 7:56am
#19
...I also don't think that there are other strong points, at least not after the ITF. During the first mission of Dr. Kahn's TF (the new one) a Fifth Column soldier says he hated hiding in the past, and that makes it look like the Fifth is done hiding.
In the ITF, Requiem says: "I have come across time itself to this land. Our temporal strongholds are growing even now as you stand here gloating. You think you have won, but that is only because you are ignorant to my plans.
I came here to establish another stronghold in Cimerora. This cradle of power is to be my training ground for recruits...."
Which to me at least implies that there are more strongholds out there (and gives some opportunity to create an MA arc with Requiem in another time
). The 5th dialogue in the new TF could be explained as just that particular soldier and/or his group being restored to the present. Or it could indicate that Reichsman has taken over the whole group, ousted Requiem and changed all his plans, making the ITF for all intents and purposes irrelavent.... I really can not help but think that the Fifth Columnists are more loyal to the Nazi ideals than to Requiem. So when presented with the option of being led by the guy who really embodies those ideals aka Reichsman, especially after Requiem's whole debacle during the ITF...it just makes sense to me that guys would jump ship.
Although I agree with you, I would have less trouble with this point,if it were actually made by the writers in either the TF/SF. That goes back to my initial post, though. When asked about some of these points, rather than fixing the TF/SF on Test or answering the questions in their 'Fodder for the Cannon' thread, they pointed to material with no bearing on these points.
June 28, 2009 - 3:06pm
#20
Well, it would appear there is some good news and some of the last mission in the hero TF was changed. Akarist is no longer in the mission and was replaced with a Malta dude, and dialogue with the various AV's was modified in an attempt to make more sense.
June 28, 2009 - 4:11pm
#21
Whew... Akarist was a big point of contention on the official boards.
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