MA Zero Tolerance Policy
May 5, 2009 - 10:37am
Positron has just posted on the CoH Forums ...
Positron's post
Found this the most interesting ...
So here is a list of things that are going to happen:
• Players that have abused the reward system egregiously may lose benefits they have gained - leading up to and perhaps including losing access to the characters power-leveled in this fashion.
• Currently, some badges are being modified, and some may be removed from the game entirely. The list of changes being made to the MA badge system is not final yet, but you will be made aware when we have a concrete plan.
• Players who knowingly use an exploit when creating an arc, run the risk of having access to MA suspended, or worse- depending on the severity of the action, their account banned.
Positron's post
Found this the most interesting ...
So here is a list of things that are going to happen:
• Players that have abused the reward system egregiously may lose benefits they have gained - leading up to and perhaps including losing access to the characters power-leveled in this fashion.
• Currently, some badges are being modified, and some may be removed from the game entirely. The list of changes being made to the MA badge system is not final yet, but you will be made aware when we have a concrete plan.
• Players who knowingly use an exploit when creating an arc, run the risk of having access to MA suspended, or worse- depending on the severity of the action, their account banned.
May 5, 2009 - 10:39am
#1
oh boy... see you guys. ill write i promise
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May 5, 2009 - 10:46am
#2
Wow, that's a hell of a stance on this. Probably much needed though. Speak softly, and carry a big stick might be Posi's new motto. Still, can't help be feeling this is a step in the right direction to prevent a huge influx of power-leveled newbs and vets alike ruining the player-base of the servers 
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May 15, 2009 - 11:03am
#3
edited
May 5, 2009 - 12:31pm
#4
I think locking power-leveled characters is over doing it.
But I can understand getting rid of the ability to do extreme power leveling.
But I can understand getting rid of the ability to do extreme power leveling.
May 5, 2009 - 12:32pm
#5
Especially after the XP Smoothing Curve, and now the Patrol XP...leveling happens at a super pace compared with the original 3.5 years of the game. Tis a necessary thing to have them removed.
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May 5, 2009 - 12:49pm
#6
My fellow Adversitinians. Kthnxbye!
SS
May 5, 2009 - 12:50pm
#7
Yoinks!
I feel really bad for Omni!
Killing characters is way over board I think, especially if the criteria for selecting those characters is subjective. They do need to do something but I dread the knee-jerk reaction that results in badge changes and removals. I do almost no power-leveling but obviously I'll still have to share in the repercussions.
I feel really bad for Omni!
Killing characters is way over board I think, especially if the criteria for selecting those characters is subjective. They do need to do something but I dread the knee-jerk reaction that results in badge changes and removals. I do almost no power-leveling but obviously I'll still have to share in the repercussions.
May 5, 2009 - 1:20pm
#8
It sounded to me like the locked character thing was a last resort. I doubt it's something they're doing in the first wave, but rather for the folks that continue to abuse the system after this warning.
I've not used the MA much yet, but my first thought is whether they'll police unpublished content. In other words, what's to stop someone from publishing a farm only when they want to use it, then unpublishing it? SG farms will still exist under those circumstances -- they'd probably just put no farming text in there for other people to see and use it only for their own groups.
Either way, I think it's a good move. I've always been baffled by the powerlevelling in this game, because there's nothing special to do in the end-game.
I've not used the MA much yet, but my first thought is whether they'll police unpublished content. In other words, what's to stop someone from publishing a farm only when they want to use it, then unpublishing it? SG farms will still exist under those circumstances -- they'd probably just put no farming text in there for other people to see and use it only for their own groups.
Either way, I think it's a good move. I've always been baffled by the powerlevelling in this game, because there's nothing special to do in the end-game.
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facebook.com/jrgreeno
MArc ID 215878: Freakshow Finale
May 5, 2009 - 2:00pm
#9
I can't speak for the PL community at large, but for myself, I don't use PL to get to end-game, rather, I can't stand anything pre-22. I know its not hard to get to 22 or 27 anymore, but before XP-curve smoothing, it could be torture. Once SOs, and decently powerful IOs become available, many toons become more manageable. For those who use stamina, it is most likely taken and slotted by 22, and many of the under-powered issues of the first 21 levels are behind you.
Besides, I doubt the big issue is the PLed toons. The power of these MA farms was the ability to get a TF rated pool C recipe drop after about 5-6 minutes in a mission. I know I was getting 6-8 Pool C drops per toon an hour on a few of the runs I did with dual F/Kins. That's overpowered, and would, eventually, lead to a dramatic crash of the market for most Pool C recipes. (Granted, I think there needs to be a small crash in the market as there are some wickedly overpriced bits on the BM/WW, but I digress.)
It also seems they are not liking the fact that so many of the top tier MA badges are already had by the badge community at large. I'm sure they were expecting the top badges (50,000 custom test kills anyone?) would take several weeks to a few months perhaps. These badges were getting completed in a few hours.
Dunno. I'm surprised they didn't change many of these issues earlier.
SS
Besides, I doubt the big issue is the PLed toons. The power of these MA farms was the ability to get a TF rated pool C recipe drop after about 5-6 minutes in a mission. I know I was getting 6-8 Pool C drops per toon an hour on a few of the runs I did with dual F/Kins. That's overpowered, and would, eventually, lead to a dramatic crash of the market for most Pool C recipes. (Granted, I think there needs to be a small crash in the market as there are some wickedly overpriced bits on the BM/WW, but I digress.)
It also seems they are not liking the fact that so many of the top tier MA badges are already had by the badge community at large. I'm sure they were expecting the top badges (50,000 custom test kills anyone?) would take several weeks to a few months perhaps. These badges were getting completed in a few hours.
Dunno. I'm surprised they didn't change many of these issues earlier.
SS
May 5, 2009 - 2:43pm
#10
amen Sean. it levels the playing field for overpriced purple sets. also gets us beyond the level 22 hiccups.
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May 5, 2009 - 4:13pm
#11
I see where you're coming from, but I guess I just don't agree, mostly because purple recipes and the popular Pool C stuff aren't necessary. The game is ridiculously easy, even if you only use traditional SO's. The mindset that says, "I have to have these three rares and these seven purples and a 50% recharge to everything or my character is gimped" is just silly to me.
So I would argue that the playing field is already leveled and anyone putting together those super-maxed-out builds together better really enjoy spending that kind of time and money on something cuz it just ain't necessary to the game at all.
The level 1-22 thing I get. Grinding through those levels can suck, especially for support toons. But the degree to which the MA system is being abused for levels and badges and rewards is insane. I don't know that people exploiting it should be punished, but they should certainly do what they can to eliminate the abuse.
So I would argue that the playing field is already leveled and anyone putting together those super-maxed-out builds together better really enjoy spending that kind of time and money on something cuz it just ain't necessary to the game at all.
The level 1-22 thing I get. Grinding through those levels can suck, especially for support toons. But the degree to which the MA system is being abused for levels and badges and rewards is insane. I don't know that people exploiting it should be punished, but they should certainly do what they can to eliminate the abuse.
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facebook.com/jrgreeno
MArc ID 215878: Freakshow Finale
May 5, 2009 - 4:16pm
#12
with Jags __________________
May 5, 2009 - 4:42pm
#13
I'll believe it when I see it. There is simply no way for them to enforce rules on everyone that creates MA arcs. Not everyone uses the forums. Not everyone reads GMOTDs. Not everyone reads the tutorials on how to make MA arcs in game. The only way for them to make sure the system isn't abused is to create locks on the creation system.
May 5, 2009 - 4:43pm
#14
I made my biggest points on the official forums, and I'm afraid they weren't entirely positive.
Yes I agree that 17 lvls in 3 runs of a single mission is over the top and should be addressed.
I agree that this goes beyond efficient farming and into the area of exploitation.
I'm upset because the devs let us all do it for a month before saying anything more than 'We don't like MA farming. Please don't do it', and then lower the hammer threatening to possibly punish people retroactively. That's not due process.
I think cracking down on this makes sense, but alienating players by taking away their toons doesn't.
I also don't think they've defined clearly what in MA is going to get banned. People could start loosing MA slots and not really know why, depending on how subjective the GM's are. I realize the Rikti Com officers are easy to spot as exploits, but there's an aweful lot of other things people can do in MA that may or may not be affected by this and they haven't drawn that line yet. How easy is it going to be to be griefed by someone who just didn't like your arc?
I'm very uncomfortable with all of these possibilities as well as Positron's heavy tone.
What I hope and expect is that there will be very few retroactively affected accounts, but really, who knows until it's clearly defined?
There's my rant. Thanks for listening. Nothing to see here. Just move along.....
Yes I agree that 17 lvls in 3 runs of a single mission is over the top and should be addressed.
I agree that this goes beyond efficient farming and into the area of exploitation.
I'm upset because the devs let us all do it for a month before saying anything more than 'We don't like MA farming. Please don't do it', and then lower the hammer threatening to possibly punish people retroactively. That's not due process.
I think cracking down on this makes sense, but alienating players by taking away their toons doesn't.
I also don't think they've defined clearly what in MA is going to get banned. People could start loosing MA slots and not really know why, depending on how subjective the GM's are. I realize the Rikti Com officers are easy to spot as exploits, but there's an aweful lot of other things people can do in MA that may or may not be affected by this and they haven't drawn that line yet. How easy is it going to be to be griefed by someone who just didn't like your arc?
I'm very uncomfortable with all of these possibilities as well as Positron's heavy tone.
What I hope and expect is that there will be very few retroactively affected accounts, but really, who knows until it's clearly defined?
There's my rant. Thanks for listening. Nothing to see here. Just move along.....
May 5, 2009 - 4:45pm
#15
I'll believe it when I see it. There is simply no way for them to enforce rules on everyone that creates MA arcs. Not everyone uses the forums. Not everyone reads GMOTDs. Not everyone reads the tutorials on how to make MA arcs in game. The only way for them to make sure the system isn't abused is to create locks on the creation system.
Then Posi's just posturing, and I can't really respect that either.
May 5, 2009 - 5:29pm
#16
I doubt that the devs will sit down and hold our hands and walk us through every thing that is and isn't acceptable - by doing that the devs could bring player attention to potential future exploits. While it sucks, the best thing players can do is use common sense as well as the idea of risk vs reward. If the rewards are much greater than the risk, then chances are it's wrong and considered an exploit.
And I don't think the devs are going to go after every single person that ran one of the Comm Officer MArcs or other assorted farm/exploit missions and "ban" their characters. It's a very extreme punishment that more than likely requires a significant time investment to investigate and as a result they'll most likely go after those players that severely abused the system. But I do think that there will be players that will get punished, otherwise these potential empty threats will be more damaging than the mess going on now.
And I don't think the devs are going to go after every single person that ran one of the Comm Officer MArcs or other assorted farm/exploit missions and "ban" their characters. It's a very extreme punishment that more than likely requires a significant time investment to investigate and as a result they'll most likely go after those players that severely abused the system. But I do think that there will be players that will get punished, otherwise these potential empty threats will be more damaging than the mess going on now.
May 5, 2009 - 8:14pm
#17
... It's a very extreme punishment that more than likely requires a significant time investment to investigate and as a result they'll most likely go after those players that severely abused the system. But I do think that there will be players that will get punished, otherwise these potential empty threats will be more damaging than the mess going on now.
Agreed.
I still don't think they should be doing it retroactively, though. We all know there's someone out there already testing the devs and the system to see what they can get away with since the announcement was made. They should have no trouble finding examples. Also, it seems they've given people a few hours to take down offending arcs rather than blanket banning anything with comm officers in it, which, again, I appreciate.
They've made their point and we know there's consequences. Lets move on.
May 6, 2009 - 8:27am
#18
May I just chime in here and say that Peregrin is making some profoundly articulate, well reasoned arguments here? I'd also like to point out how out of place that kind of thing is on this forum.
I agree with much of what Per has said, in particular his comment about due process. At work I manage about 40 people across 4 facilities. I'm painfully aware of how difference in tone of presentation can affect people who are emotionally invested in the subject. To give us "complete freedom" and to suddenly shift tone to suggest that the players have abused that freedom is a real turn off.
I agree with much of what Per has said, in particular his comment about due process. At work I manage about 40 people across 4 facilities. I'm painfully aware of how difference in tone of presentation can affect people who are emotionally invested in the subject. To give us "complete freedom" and to suddenly shift tone to suggest that the players have abused that freedom is a real turn off.
May 6, 2009 - 9:04am
#19
Good.
Maybe the people who take the time to write interesting stories will finally stop having their stories buried under farming arcs.
I'm sorry, but while I'm sure there were people who didn't know they were abusing exploits to PL their characters, the people in this forum certainly can't claim that. Abusing exploits is against the rules... why is it bad for them to enforce that? That abuse has had a dramatic effect on the market and is affecting the players who aren't abusing the exploits.
They should do something. I'm glad they finally are.
Maybe the people who take the time to write interesting stories will finally stop having their stories buried under farming arcs.
I'm sorry, but while I'm sure there were people who didn't know they were abusing exploits to PL their characters, the people in this forum certainly can't claim that. Abusing exploits is against the rules... why is it bad for them to enforce that? That abuse has had a dramatic effect on the market and is affecting the players who aren't abusing the exploits.
They should do something. I'm glad they finally are.
May 6, 2009 - 9:19am
#20
Ideally this type of action will lead to better content being found on the MA system. If I didn't have a bunch of super creative SG mates, I'd be relegated to choosing 3-5 starred content in the hopes it didn't suck. I've only come across 2 such missions that I randomly chose and the content was decent and enjoyable.
Like it or not, Positron and the crew are making the right decisions, and its always the few who ruin it for the masses. We've had these types of actions before, but it wasn't as easily tracked because it wasn't our own player based content we could create on the fly at will. Now that we can essentially create anything we want within a few basic guidelines, there's going to be a ton of safeguards to be put into place to prevent the game from burning out its community and becoming the next Tabula Rasa, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, or whatever else fizzled out because there was no point to the game/content.
Like it or not, Positron and the crew are making the right decisions, and its always the few who ruin it for the masses. We've had these types of actions before, but it wasn't as easily tracked because it wasn't our own player based content we could create on the fly at will. Now that we can essentially create anything we want within a few basic guidelines, there's going to be a ton of safeguards to be put into place to prevent the game from burning out its community and becoming the next Tabula Rasa, SW Galaxies, Age of Conan, or whatever else fizzled out because there was no point to the game/content.
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May 6, 2009 - 9:40am
#21
I agree with you, Koldoon. I think they should draw the line very clearly, and include reasonable punitive actions.
Posi's post should have come out as soon as they realized just how prolific this behaviour had become, and they should have started taking action at that point, rather than allowing the behaviour for a month and then taking such a hard stance.
Punishing a kid for breaking curfew over and over again when you never seemed to care before would be harsh. A better approach would be to sit him down and say, "Look, this has gotten out of hand. From this point on I'll be watching your curfew and here are the possible consequences....."
Anyway, bottom line is, there's really nothing I disaggree with in this thread, and I don't expect we'll see the worst case scenarios presented in the announcement. I trust the dev's to be reasonable. I'm surprised at the tone of the announcement, especially in light of the increased subscriptions. I don't think Posi gave new players the best first impression. I'm a little leary of overzealous players and GM's reporting and banning too much in the short term, but I don't think I'll personally be affected.
Posi's post should have come out as soon as they realized just how prolific this behaviour had become, and they should have started taking action at that point, rather than allowing the behaviour for a month and then taking such a hard stance.
Punishing a kid for breaking curfew over and over again when you never seemed to care before would be harsh. A better approach would be to sit him down and say, "Look, this has gotten out of hand. From this point on I'll be watching your curfew and here are the possible consequences....."
Anyway, bottom line is, there's really nothing I disaggree with in this thread, and I don't expect we'll see the worst case scenarios presented in the announcement. I trust the dev's to be reasonable. I'm surprised at the tone of the announcement, especially in light of the increased subscriptions. I don't think Posi gave new players the best first impression. I'm a little leary of overzealous players and GM's reporting and banning too much in the short term, but I don't think I'll personally be affected.
May 6, 2009 - 9:54am
#22
Ideally this type of action will lead to better content being found on the MA system...
It's rare, but in this case I'm going to disagree with you, Pax.
I've seen this argument a few times, and it's even implied in Posi's announcement but my experience differs. (I recognize my experience is limited, so take my opinion with a grain of your favorite seasoning....)
I randomly choose arcs to play from time to time. I've tried Hall of Fame, Dev's Choice, 3 to 5 stars. I've not yet run into an obvious farming/exploitative arc, outside of those recommended by SG mates. I've also rarely run into content that I'm truely excited about.
In other worsds, removing the farming arcs will help, I'm sure, but I'm going to have to start looking at the different online directories, etc., when I'm looking for AE content. Trying to sift through mediocraty and picking Arcs based on rating and description in game just isn't working for me. We need a better in game rating system. Maybe I've been spoiled by the creativity of this SG though....
May 6, 2009 - 9:58am
#23
Boy I'm being mouthy over these things....
What happened to the nice Canadian demeanor I'm supposed to be exuding???
Omin! Scam! Help me!!!
What happened to the nice Canadian demeanor I'm supposed to be exuding???
Omin! Scam! Help me!!!
May 6, 2009 - 10:00am
#24
Posi's post should have come out as soon as they realized just how prolific this behaviour had become, and they should have started taking action at that point, rather than allowing the behaviour for a month and then taking such a hard stance.
I don't mean for this to sound rude, but I think it's a bit naive to say that the Paragon Studios team hasn't been combating the problem since day 1. The farm MArcs have been reported and removed, but people also go and republish them, so it can become very cyclical - especially if people who at one time were reported are not reported later on if they republish.
The other part is that as for a stronger reaction from the dev team - I don't really think they had a solid plan until recently and it's not something they could just jump on overnight without having some sort of plan.
I'm deriving part of this from the following comment that Avatea made on the EU boards -
It's taken a while to get to the bottom of this but please, does it have this poisonous on these boards?
I understand that many are conjecturing wildly after what Positron said but, had we decided to react more lightly than this, there would have been just as much ruckus.
We haven't specified the exact extent of the measures we are taking against farming and those who have benefited from it, so let's not over-react
I understand that many are conjecturing wildly after what Positron said but, had we decided to react more lightly than this, there would have been just as much ruckus.
We haven't specified the exact extent of the measures we are taking against farming and those who have benefited from it, so let's not over-react
In a way this sort of contradicts Posi's statement, but at the same time maybe it can be taken as slightly reassuring for those players that fear they might be punished.
May 6, 2009 - 10:03am
#25
Peregrin -
I've actively tried to find good arcs in the unrated pile... and had more than one instance where I had to go through 5 pages or more of ONLY farming arcs before I could find even a badly written story.
Supposedly I-15 is going to improve the MA and I hope that includes beefed up searching tools.
I've actively tried to find good arcs in the unrated pile... and had more than one instance where I had to go through 5 pages or more of ONLY farming arcs before I could find even a badly written story.
Supposedly I-15 is going to improve the MA and I hope that includes beefed up searching tools.
May 6, 2009 - 10:04am
#26
...In a way this sort of contradicts Posi's statement, but at the same time maybe it can be taken as slightly reassuring for those players that fear they might be punished.
Yeah. I agree with this. It's not reassuring if you're not scanning all the boards, though. Plus, with all of the complaints of vagueness on the official boards, it might be best if they presented a more clear unified position.
May 6, 2009 - 10:14am
#27
Hey Koldoon,
Like I said, my experience differs, and I'm certainly not saying that other people haven't been inundated with the farm arcs. If that's what a lot of people are experiencing then I can understand the frustration. Getting rid of those arcs will definitely help then.
Regardless of the farm arcs, I'm having trouble finding anything but badly written arcs, outside of what this SG has advertised. I haven't been scanning the unrated arcs, though, and I haven't run into the farming arc issue.
I am looking forward to I15 possibly adding a tagging system. I'm tired of not knowing what levels an arc is appropriate for, if its a 'challenge' arc, meant specifically for solo or teams, etc.
Like I said, my experience differs, and I'm certainly not saying that other people haven't been inundated with the farm arcs. If that's what a lot of people are experiencing then I can understand the frustration. Getting rid of those arcs will definitely help then.
Regardless of the farm arcs, I'm having trouble finding anything but badly written arcs, outside of what this SG has advertised. I haven't been scanning the unrated arcs, though, and I haven't run into the farming arc issue.
I am looking forward to I15 possibly adding a tagging system. I'm tired of not knowing what levels an arc is appropriate for, if its a 'challenge' arc, meant specifically for solo or teams, etc.
May 6, 2009 - 10:16am
#28
My Stance is simple and Posi echoed my sentiments exactly in this post
smile people now we get to actually PLAY content! yes i played farming missions but i also highly enjoyed the story content and the farming didnt really overtake my playing time (ok the comm officer with my spines/dark made me actually want to play Omnistrike... DAMN U RAZOR!) but i enjoyed Marq, Razor, and Scams actual story archs and am looking forward to Koldoons.
smile people now we get to actually PLAY content! yes i played farming missions but i also highly enjoyed the story content and the farming didnt really overtake my playing time (ok the comm officer with my spines/dark made me actually want to play Omnistrike... DAMN U RAZOR!) but i enjoyed Marq, Razor, and Scams actual story archs and am looking forward to Koldoons.
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May 6, 2009 - 10:18am
#29
I think they're also afraid of putting out too concrete of a plan and not having the lee-way to make necessary (and logical) changes because it didn't fit into their finitely planned strategery of action towards MA Abusers. Honestly, the way I look at this, is it's just another day in the CoX Universe, and the bulk of our players (and the community as a whole) won't truly be impacted by this. The thing we'll lose most might be a couple of quick levels, and a bunch of whiners who I'd probably never miss ruining the game for us all. I'm sure there's exceptions to that sentiment, but the whining (not here, in the Official Forums) hurts my soul. For the love of my Helmet, it's just a game 
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May 6, 2009 - 10:43am
#30
For the love of my Helmet, it's just a game
I couldn't agree more.
SS